Hopefully this is a quick and painless thing to get out of the way. Are there any specific rules we want for the server? Some of us discussed this over steam chat, and the consensus seemed to be to keep it simple. So what about this?
1) Be courteous to your fellow players.
2) Don't cheat, exploit scripting bugs, or pass items between your characters.
3) Ask before engaging in PvP.
The above probably could stand to be elaborated on a little bit for the sake of clarity.
Other questions that come to mind right off are: how are we going to handle permadeath? Are there any basic policies we'd like for DM'ed quests?
I really don't care that much about "no passing items between characters", because, it'll probably happen anyway and usually it's done because something about the leveling process feels overwhelming or boring. So far, everything else is pretty standard stuff.
I think perma death should be by player consent only.
1) If this could be maintained then you wouldn't need many more rules for anything. If more people would just send tells discussing possible "disruptive" actions they want to take before they take them, so many ooc conflicts would just completely go away. I think that should be stressed, to communicate your intentions as best you can before doing something that might upset someone if done just out of the blue.
3) Ask before engaging in PvP. Absolutely. I think this actually just ties back into being courteous.
Well, with the passing items between your own characters thing--I used to think it wasn't a big deal either, until there was huge upset on my server because somebody had cheated and had passed overpowered items on to all of his characters. So suddenly all his characters were super powerful, other players got resentful, and it was a huge headache for every DM. These things so easily spiral into community shaking problems (and this wasn't even on a server where PvP was much of an issue). Its better for the community when people with plenty of gear give it or sell it at a reduced lost to the lowbies that are not their own.
I don't think permadeath should be a topic that comes up too frequently for us, or at least I hope it won't. But if you leave it only to player consent, then that's the same as saying there is no permadeath. The occasional character retirement aside, the rule of thumb is that nobody ever kills off their own characters. So its possible to end up with a situation where there's no way no how this character should be able to survive and/or be playable given their current course (i.e. he's ticked off every character and all the villagers). At that point permadeath might have to be imposed. It ties back into not being stuck with a static world.
That said, I would say that permadeath would need to be agreed upon by the majority of those with DM / admin powers. . . or some equivalent consensus.
Regarding permadeath; I'm rather in support of it, and Mimi basically covered most of it. I like the element of danger in a campaign.... now, granted this doesn't mean that i'd appreciate it if the DM-of -the-campaign were to be arbitrary or spiteful about it, but long as its established before hand that yes, Permadeath is a risk in X campaign or under so and so circumstances, I'd be good with it.
be courteous, polite to fellow players and the DM. D&D has always been about telling a good story and playing characters with in that story as well as socializing with others. I feel that a lot of folks have forgotten this particular aspect of this game. It is not a competition style game in most regards, though it can if handled correctly. If any one joining this server is wanting a super competative game, then please consider something else to satisfy that particular need especially if your wanting to be the biggest baddest character on the block. Power building is always something that will be attempted. But I would ask that you consider what would prove for an interesting time a character who can do anything and everything or someone who is able to network and build a group of individuals that can seemingly do anything and everything they put their minds to?
Permanent Death of a character should be expressed fully before any campaign, quest line or event is started. even in character story arcs. though in any true D&D group or session. the Loss of the character should always be considered a possibility. As much as I'd hate to lose Vilanth there is that chance.
It is never fun to lose a character but there should be consequences to some characters actions. As we are no longer in sigil. Death is a real Danger. Yes we can opt to go with the knocked unconscious bit for when the characters die mechanically in game due to some failed tactic or attempt to do something they had no business doing. however; I feel that fear of death and loss of character tends to make players a bit more mindful of what actions they have their characters take. I enjoy dangerous encounters and situations that are over powering for the characters and am always thrilled when my characters manage to survive due to sheer dumb luck, careful planing or even retreating when the going gets to dangerous if that is still an option. I'm sure all of you are a bit horrified at what I am suggesting or at my stance on this matter.. and Perhaps I'm falling back to much on Pen and paper, but that is my view.
-- Edited by Emiryn on Monday 12th of November 2012 04:44:16 PM
I have mixed feelings about character death. I realize that for some, without having a lingering fear of the great "end of the character forever" consequence, the game can lose some if not all of it's thrill. For me, the fun isn't in the thrill of the adventure, but more about the interpersonal relationships.
Character death could, in a very real way, be a campaign ender for me. While I have "side" characters on servers, they never serve as anything more than fluff. In reality, over 10 years, I've only had two characters that I truly enjoyed playing, and had the risk of death been more present, both would likely have been dead a couple of days into the playing them. Sadly it takes me an extremely long time to bond with a character.
So, this may be more of a concern for me than others, depending on how attached to their characters they tend to be.
I guess that means I'm on the other end of the spectrum on this topic.
I'd rather not ever lose a character as I too take a while to develop the character and put so much time and effort into figuring them out. As I've been playing Vilanth going on nearly a year now including time on Sigil and her origins in a pnp session which she has very narrowly escaped death. the most traumatic one being when she took a blow from an axe that honestly nearly cleaved her in two. That episode is what reminded me that yes I can lose my character. Admittedly I'd be devastated if I lost her but it helped develop Vilanth a bit more in realizing she was not as skilled as she thought she was and there is always room for improvement and that she shouldn't grow lax in her training.but I know that she will eventually need to be retired as a pc either due to death or character age eventually dulling her capabilities as she does not belong to a long lived race compared to some of the others.
Anyway, the point I am trying to make here is that with out the fear of repercussions everyone acts all superhero," nothing can hurt me!" Now some of this I can understand for certain character types or personalities. but the common fellow has a fear of death or wishes to court it to prove to themselves that they can do anything, or because they have a death wish or are intoxicated by the thrill of putting themselves into such situations but that mentality gets to be boring after a while. and it can make it harder and harder to write or script scenarios that will prove challenging for the characters due to this super hero mentality or build. i'm just rambling now..
Let me restate this.. death be it permanent or temporary should be agreed upon by the player and the DM where that caracter is perhaps absent or played in a decreased faculty for a period of time to mimic recovery of the character especially if a high level cleric is not around to administer healing magics or someone trained in field medicine is capable of tending the character.
Okay off on another tangent and rambling.. I'll stop now.
Permadeath - optional of if the DM running the camplaign gives clear rules, warnings if the character is getting too damn close to it, etc. Also prearranged permadeath can be good.
I understand what you mean by the superhero mentality, but, I'm not sure you can dissuade people from taking that mentality even if death is on the line. For some people being the "hero" of the story is just what they love and the possibility of dying in some noble way, time after time, is just compelling. What would really dissuade them is killing them off in some non-heroic fashion, but, that would likely just anger the player and make them want to stop playing altogether.
My main concern is that I tend to play characters that make a lot of poor decisions. Often time, if the game were run with a more realistic mindset, those decisions would probably get the character killed. I could have my characters make better decisions, but, I wouldn't have much fun with that.
I like what Lord Rappington of Raptopia mentioned, by providing warnings when you're about to step over that line in a campaign. I know that it's a form of metagaming to do that, but, in this one instance I think it's an acceptable use of it.
I'll concede as you do make a valid argument, and Rep's suggestion is also an option. I'd like to point out that I am not entirely against the idea of such characters or stories. Such as they can be entertaining in their own right.
1) PvP - no one gives a squat about that. D&D is no balanced around such stupidity. 1.1) consent from all sides is required.
2) Perma-death .... happens, if you/player so desire 2.1) as above, but DM driven events may have such result, such events tho should be well in bold bright letters, and just in case, if something such is ahead, let the player retreat from the threat.
3) no cheating. Period. **** may happen without you knowing, but repeated such - ye screw'd... literally....
-- Edited by anikaiful on Wednesday 21st of November 2012 10:33:57 AM
I understand what you mean by the superhero mentality, but, I'm not sure you can dissuade people from taking that mentality even if death is on the line.
There are always worse thing to happen for a char, than death. However as DM I never favour the easy you succeed everything actions for players, you get what you deserve. Permadeath is a perfectly viable option in some situation, when you act like a dumbass or superman in front of obvious strongests odds and get knocked down, your character should die at this point and never make it back like it or not. To make it simple perma is the reward the idiots and careless.
I think we do however need a clear set of rules even if purely on principle because I'm not naive enought to beleive only common sense and friendship will work.
-- Edited by Hydra on Saturday 24th of November 2012 05:01:55 AM
-- Edited by Hydra on Saturday 24th of November 2012 05:32:36 AM
-- Edited by Hydra on Saturday 24th of November 2012 05:34:22 AM
-- Edited by Hydra on Saturday 24th of November 2012 05:39:15 AM
Basic D&D Rules should apply, even though those tend to be based upon Respect for other players. and to keep Player knowledge out of Character knowledge. abusing the Game client is also a point to stress. I guess we'll have to look at different rules other servers are utilizing to see what we should institute on this server.. to many or to few rules can be a bad thing .. its why I'm having a hard time coming up with suggestions.. to me its common sense on some of the things that should and shouldn't be done..
- Rule number I : It's have game we're here to have fun, from DM and player perspective.
- Characters with disavantages as well : Characters should be "balanced" roleplaywise, they should have weaknesses and disavantages as well.
- Mature mindset : Mature gaming, this dosen't regard ERP but basicly, but mostly the way you should take the game, if something bad happens to your character you're not necessarly screwed and you can make something out of it. Great adventures are made out of necessity and risks taking.
- This is not a social server : Basicly we don't give a damn about what happens between characters and if you like playing ot or not, as long it brings something to the story just don't make it an ERP fest that overlaps actual RPs, there are other servers for that.
- Avoid talking OCCly about IC things : You should talk OCCly the least possible about your RPs, it spoils many RP moments and things your character might discover. Its forbiden for DMs to talk about thier story line to players for obvious reasons, they may give hints but that's all.
- Metagaming is forbidden : People repetitively abusing meta-gaming should be sanctioned at some point.
- Balanced roleplay powers : About Roleplay powers, these powers are fine as long the players you play with agrees with them and their extent. You cannot enforce Roleplay powers to work without DM or other players agreement. Here are some examples : They can be empathic links between people, impossibility to be actually killed etc... But they must have a disadvantages assorted with, the empathic link may not work if people are on a different plane, the impossibility to actually die doesn't mean your char couldn't be disabled for quite some time, etc...
- Skills should be roleplayed properly : About social skills (aka Diplo, Bluff, Intimidate) : Characters who doesn't have these skills can lie, convince or intimidate people as "normal" people can do, those who have invested a lot on these are social-annimals of sort and that should be roleplayed properly.
- About character knowledge : Characters should be consequent with their skills, that means that if your char has 5 points in knowledges (because it's an useless skill powerbuilders avoid) they're pretty much ignorant about a lot of things, and it should be played as it.
- Gods become NPCs :A character reaching a god-like status, is therefore a god and not playable anymore as PC.
Philosophy :
- Play, relaxed and friendly with a positive mindset.
- No competitive playing, we're here to enjoy a story, your story and other's as well.
- Don't be a jerk thinking only about your character and your enjoyment.
- No restricted RP clans, try to RP with others you don't know rather than remain with your friends. Diversity is good.
- DMs are not entertainers and XP givers, they're also here to enjoy themselves and be respected at some point for providing storylines.
- Players aren't DMs puppets and cannon fodders nor should they be tricked into making choices with dead ends or railroaded.
-- Edited by Hydra on Friday 30th of November 2012 03:23:37 PM
Sorry it took me a while to get to this, but there's a couple of things that bug me about Hydra's list.
First of all, there's a lot of true statements in it, like that you shouldn't play the invincible character, or that we should deal with IC things IC, but I don't think these really qualify as server rules. I'm sure we could all write essays on how we wish everyone behaved on the perfect server, but the server rules, if they are to remain simple and straightforward, need to be concrete statements so that its clear when they've been broken or not broken. Breaking server rules is also punishable (with banning if there are serious repeat offenders), so they need to cover relatively serious offenses that damage the community.
For instance, if somebody is griefing or cussing out, or generally being nasty to their fellow players (and such is obvious from logs and screen shots), that's obviously a problem and everyone in the community should be able to see that they need to be punished for it. I suppose that on a more IC front there can also be the extreme case where somebody is ignoring every ruling DM's make about their character, and causing severe friction as a result (random example that is unlikely to happen here--the paladin who was decreed fallen continuing to use holy/good/divine feats to best another PC). That too is a clear problem that needs to be addressed / punished. But in matters like how much your character knows, or how much you talk about something IC vs. OOC, there isn't the same definite line to be crossed.
I also think that a lot of things which are hinted at in the above list are actually dependent on how the current DM is running things (like the skill handling, and power level rules). We could (and should) write up a few DM guidelines (or agreements on how we're going to handle certain situations, if that sounds friendlier), but there will still be differences between how DM's handle particular instances of skill / power use.
Heh, I don't really see anything wrong with what Hydra's saying but rules should be kept more simple indeed. Severely unbalanced RP powers are the same thing as Godmodding for example. Now...
Rule proposal:
Incase we're not at any point implementing Knowledge skills mechanically, Lore should NEVER be a way for a character to know -EVERYTHING-. A character only knows what it makes sense for them to know. It's that simple. Your travelling fighter fresh off the Prime might know A LOT and I mean a lot about Prime hazards and geography if he has a lore of 30 but won't know any much about Planar intricacies of various sort or history of magic unless he has background reasons to, etc. For simplicity, I believe we should keep the extensive knowledge of a lore character NOT achieved IG to three or four general themes. When it's something not of their specialization, the character takes a /2 to the roll + additional penalties for something particularly obscure. That'll still allow classes which are scholars by nature and might know something about items they're not specialized in however it'll prevent them from knowing everything. Knowledge on particular things which we already have skills for, like healing or spellcraft is determined by lore but rather the relevant skills. These may take penalties depending on the obscurity as well As an example, Hildmor:
Lore studied: 1)History of Toril. 2)Street lore and culture. 3)Planar(The Plane of Shadows).
Whenever Hildmor rolls for knowledge on something NOT concerning these topics, his roll is divided by 2 on the DM end. He's an Intellegence based scholar however and therefore has over 40 Lore...and 80 with the right spells he may still have decent results on other topics. However, he'll not have knowledge of every Planar or Prime town or any obscure creature or item he encounters. Should he roll Lore on an Abyssal layer he never visited before and has no IG-gained knowledge of, the best he gets is its master and its name. He'll not know how to get around, he won't know any local peaceful cities or portals or especially hazardous places unless he actually finds that out IG.
That's all folks.
I am simply tired of a DM coming up with something extremely mysterious and then having a bard roll 120 Lore and going Oh I Know All About This.
In general, it's up for DMs to determine how well character Lore/Spellcraft/Heal/ETC works. This is jut a guideline. To quote Duke:
[Tell] Even with Hildmor's education, contacts and spies he does not know jack**** as to whatthe****isthis. I mean really. He shouldn't be ashamed tho, even the DM has no clue wtf is this just yet.
SInce we're all proposing our version of the rules...
1) Be courteous to your fellow players. Acting like a jackass OOC, or going out of your way to grief someone (IC or OOC) is bad form. Even if there is an IC reason for hostilities between PC's, if you know that its causing the player opposite you uneasiness for whatever reason, try to figure out a more amiable solution, and be flexible when it comes to your characters decisions. This doesn't mean you back down every single time, but think about a more amiable solution first.
2) Listen to the DM of the time. Questioning things on occasion is okay, but standing there arguing and wasting everyones time because you think the DM is wrong is not. If you have a serious problem with how things are run, discuss it with the DM in question or the other DM's outside of the session.
3) Lore and its use is up to the DM at the time. Same goes for all rolls.
4) If a DM rules on something, abide by it unless and until another DM explicitly tells you that it was an incorrect ruling and that it no longer applies. I am not listing specific cases because frankly, it doesn't matter. Bottom line; if a DM made a ruling, its law till otherwise noted. As in point three, you may bring up concerns with the other DM's, but automatically disregarding a ruling is disrespectful and poor form in general.
5) On the subject of point four, this one is for DM's; Don't step on each others toes. Try to respect each others decisions, rulings, and most importantly, stories. Avoid running quests that contradict events in another DM's arc. Also; unless the other DM said otherwise, avoid using their cast of characters or plot arcs too directly. If you do wish to use them, discuss with the original DM in question to make sure you are being consistant with their vision.
MOre later, need to run.
-- Edited by Taurus Daggerknight on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 09:29:26 AM
Continuing the "Daggerknight Edition of Proposed Rules" :
6) RL Racism and Religious Bigotry will not be tolerated. This is an international player group, so starting a war over one's religious beliefs or nationality is strictly forbidden. Discussion on religion or politics is okay, but do so responsibly, and if you feel that the discussion is heading into a heated argument, agree to disagree and stop before it gets ugly.
7) ERP falls under similar rules to PVP; if the player opposite you is expressing unease at the idea of it, DON'T DO IT. Also; don't turn it into a graphic display and shove it in everyone else's faces.
8) If you encounter a bug, report it. DO NOT exploit it. Exploiting a bug in a script is the same as cheating, and as such is unacceptable. This goes for players as well as DM's.
9) As a DM, you may import items into the game via your avatar, under the following conditions: a) The items statistically conform to the servers item power limits. b) There is an actual story reason for bringing it in. c) You do NOT import items for your own PC's unless it is an appearance change. If it is an apperance change, you MUST have another DM examine both items and ensure that they are both statistically equal before being allowed to grant it to your PC.
10) If your character has a special power, group affiliation or any other quality you wish to be acknowledged and integrated into the ongoing lore, discuss it with the DM's ahead of time. If you bring it up mid game without any prior warning, it will not be given its due attention. Also bear in mind that some powers/ abilities/ qualities may be deemed excessive by the DM's, and as such not everything will necessarily be integrated, so be prepared for that.
11) Please do not emote things that others can't possibly know, or if you do, you can't get upset if people bring it up. If you emote it, then it's obvious for some reason. Example: "I like your dress" *she said as her mind wandered back to her childhood memories of her mother.* "Oh, you look you were thinking of your mother!" says the random onlooker, who somehow knew this at a glance. Actually, please do this often, but it's funny to comment on in character.
We've gone over a lot here, so I thought I'd consolidate it all into something a little bit more readable, and then hopefully we'll have something we can post officially.
General Server Rules (these would be visible to all in the general forums and on the login screen)
1) Be courteous to your fellow players and DM's. Avoid metagaming, and keep in character matters in character. Steer away from real life religious and political commentary.
2) PvP requires the consent of both parties.
3) This is not a social server. ERP, like PvP, requires the consent of all parties, and should never be turned into a public show.
4) Do not cheat. Report all bugs immediately to a DM or admin, do not exploit them for your character's advantage. Do not pass items between your characters.
5) During a DM'ed quest, extra rules may apply, and will be announced by the DM. Arguments over server or DM rules and policies while a quest is running is forbidden.
6) If your character has a particular special ability or affiliation, this must be brought up beforehand on the forums to be acknowledged in server lore. Abilities deemed excessive may be toned down.
7) Permadeath is possible, but only by player consent, or with due warning and presided over by a DM.
DM Rules (this would be posted in the DM forums)
1) When running a story, be careful not to contradict another DM's storyline, ruling, or current server lore. Do not use another DM's NPCs or stories without prior permission and understanding of them.
2) You may import custom-made items into the game, as long as they conform to the current server item restrictions, and are for use in a quest (either as NPC props or PC rewards). Importing items for your own character is considered cheating.
3) Do not run quests to advance your own character's goals or organization.
4) Skill use and treatment is up to the currently running DM. However, general server policy is that character knowledge and ability should be reflected in their skills (and vice versa).
Speaking of DM rules, we also need a policy on what is expected of people with the DM password. How quickly do we expect them to wrap up storylines they start? How are we organizing our DM group? We touched on this before, but it makes a big difference as far as the DM rules are concerned. I think that if a DM leaves a questline hanging for a week and doesn't schedule a next session then somebody else should be able to come in and wrap it up to the player's satisfaction. Likewise, if a DM is always unreliable and cancelling, then their place should probably be taken by someone who is actually available and willing to run. "Permanent" DM status and access to the password would thus only be available to people who were active DM's. At the same time, the password could be temporarily given to anybody who had an idea for a short term quest, or even a campaign, without too much fuss.
